Summary and Results of the invis debate

Risk-taking argument (against invis)

shoop: remove invis to increase risk-taking/runtag and decrease safemassing.
Amir: Reducing the wolves movement speed achieves the same. Removing the golems achieves the same. Removing the Beam (shoops idea) achieves the same.
Shoop: The problem is solved now. We don't need to further reduce safemassing/increase runtag.
Amir: Justification? Why stop now if we can further increase runtag and decrease safemass?
Shoop: No counter.

Mastery-argument (For invis)

Amir: Invis increases mastery
Shoop: So does doom-guard and blink. (strawmen, but lets assume he's right).
Amir: Don't worry, we'll have enough mastery after we add the invis. no need for further additions.
Shoop: That's not how logic works.

Conclusion 1: Shoop can't have it both ways. Either we apply both arguments to all changes, or we don't apply either to all changes. Mastery argument suggest adding more stuff (its a stawman that blink etc can be added as it reduces mastery), shoops argument suggest removing Threats/counters to stuff sheep can do so that they will do this stuff more. Mastery wins.






2-20 Argument (against invis)

Shoop: We should reduce 2-20 scenario. invis increases the probability of 2-20 scenario. therefor remove the invis.
Amir; The premis is wrong. We shouldn't reduce the 2-20 scenario if it's caused by a difference in skill between players and not by random chance.
Chakra: Invis, golems, mirrorjumps are overwhelmingly luck-based, random and inherently flawed.
Amir: No they aren't.

2-20 Argument (against golems)

Amir: 2-20 is bad, golems increase chance of 2-20, remove golems.
Shoop: The 2-20 problem is solved now.
Amir: Obviously it isnt if the golem increases the chance of it happening. Why stop applying the argument/reasoning after removing the invis?
Shoop/Chakra: No counter.

Conclusion 2: 2-20 is good if you want skilled players to play little wolf and much sheep. 2-20 is only a problem if you want the opposite; everyone is closer to the ''average performance''. Cmk goes from 5 min wolf/15 min sheep average to 8 min wolf/12 min sheep average. simba goes from 15 min wolf/5 min sheep average to 12 min wolf/8 min sheep average. This is true because early kills by invis/golems/mirrors are NOT random/luck-based; they are skillbased.

If you adopt the 2-20 problem mentality, you should be ready to remove all items that are weaker than the claws that have a chance of producing early kills. There hasn't been any justification for stopping the reduction of the 2-20 scenario like shoop wants to do after removing the invis. The 2-20 argument loses.







The majority argument
Shoop/chakra/beer: The majority doesn't want invis. The majority decides who wins an argument.
Amir: That didn't apply to removing the stack tho? and you all claim it was a good decision removing the stack?
Chakra/shoop/beer: No counter.

Conclusion 3: The majority argument is, for very obvious reason, bullshit. its extremely hard to gather this data in a proper way. It's illogical. It didn't apply to previous changes(which were good changes despite majority voting against it according to chakra/shoop). Majority argument loses.


Winner on all points: Amir. The invis lives on.

Lol, you never said there is a problem with too little mastery that we solved with invis in the map.

I also never said that we solved the safemassing problem completley by removing invis.

Hey amir Ill add invis back but for all players except you just so you can see how annoying it is when wolves go invis and run around in circles not helping their team.

and ill add frost-farms for every sheep except you so that you can see how boring it is when your allies waste gold trying to build "cool farms with cool effects", not even trying to expand.

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

and ill add frost-farms for every sheep except you so that you can see how boring it is when your allies waste gold trying to build "cool farms with cool effects", not even trying to expand.

No you won't, because you are either too fucking lazy or too dimwitted to work the editor.

You seem to run on this pillar that the map requires an ideal to develop towards. Sidey/you reverently hold "mastery" at this stage and claim Shoop holds the "2-20 problem." It is flat our wrong. If anything, the ideal is "enjoyment," an ideal you decide to be "arbitrary." So we argue for factors of enjoyment. The 2-20 problem represents a lack of enjoyment, thus is something to argue against. But it is only a factor, and thus it can not be argued to all ends.

Your conclusion 2 is completely off goal and speaks of the game as if it is 1v1. CMK may get a kill in the first minute, but his other allies that are running around invisible have done nothing of help. If CMK fails to get his kill, then his entire team (which also failed), is completely doomed to the 2-20 problem. Even if he does get a kill, the failure of his allies to do much offsets the good he did.
So we take away both CMK's ability to get a kill and his teams ability to be lazy, thus forcing them to more likely win at the 10 minute mark rather the 2 or 20.
Teamwork is a crutch of Sheep Tag. CMK can be a star, but he isn't going to solo 5v1 in three minutes, even if we maximize mastery to the heavens, without luck.

Quote :

Shoop/chakra/beer: The majority doesn't want invis. The majority decides who wins an argument.
Amir: That didn't apply to removing the stack tho? and you all claim it was a good decision removing the stack?
Chakra/shoop/beer: No counter.

This is complete and utter trash. The majority wasn't in favor of removing the stack, but there was a substantial enough minority and conceded the argument and provided a trial map.
The stackless map being made official was supported by the majority.
You are not a substantial minority.

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

and ill add frost-farms for every sheep except you so that you can see how boring it is when your allies waste gold trying to build "cool farms with cool effects", not even trying to expand.

Better example would have been savings, frost farms are usually built within certain parts of the mass as the sheep is running and doesn't take any time away from their expanding speed. Hell even savings don't when you build them just randomly throughout your mass.