Who Killed Sheep Tag?

Top 3 candidates:

1. GosuSheep
2. Chakra
3. Shoop


Anyone DISAGREE?

Chakra/Gosu are for obvious reasons.

Shoop is there because he spends hours every day trying to convince non-thinking members of the community that his ideas are good. His entire ideology builds on the idea of removing all facets of skill - INCREDIBLY destructive.

An example would be trying to get rid of invis or make people that use the item outcasts. This is exactly what happened in Clan KICK and their C-goals. It's disgusting!


4. Drew

Stan: It's MY fault. I killed the Sheep Tag
[long pause]
Cartman: Aw, man...
Sharon Marsh: ...Stanley...you?
Man: No. Don't you see what this child is saying? We can't spend all our energy placing blame when something bad happens. He's saying...we all killed the Sheep Tag
Stan: No. I killed the Sheep Tag.
Woman: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: No. I killed the Sheep Tag.
Woman: And I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Cartman: Hehe...I killed the Sheep Tag!
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Woman: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: [trying to insist] I killed the Sheep Tag. I ran a wolf into the sheep tag and I killed it.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: No! I killed the fucking sheep tag!
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: I killed the Sheep Tag
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: On a wolf! That wasn't mine!
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: I kept it secret for two days!
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: The wolf caught on fire and it exploded!
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Man: I killed the Sheep Tag.
Stan: Aw, fuck it!

South park reference i found it quite fitting

Who killed Warcraft?

Three candidates
1) Time
2) Blizzard
3) Jesus


Time simply because all games get outdated. Games, no matter how good, lose their player base. There are very few games made in the early 2000's still actively played. The oldest game in the top 10 is CoD2 (2005). The next oldest is CoD4 at 2007.
http://beta.xfire.com/games

Blizzard because they didn't update their game (unlike WoW). Instead, they let it sink because it lost its profitability and instead headed for SC2. The game could have been vastly improved with a few, relatively small patches (as compared to developing SC2 or WoW expansions).

Jesus because he said sloth was a sin or something.

Wc isnt dead ya moron its alive cuz of dota. ST is dead however (no one plays it atm, 1 ih a week).

We also agree that chakra is the main reason ST died. 90% euros confirm this. It is disappointing to play a really fun game until it was ruined by the WORST mapmaker of all time chakra!!!!

P.S. chakra if u are reading this.... DO NOT EVER decide to Make maps again on any game (sc2, wc3, etc) Under any circumstances. You have proved u have 0 mapmaking skills, have no experience, and have been ridiculed by the community with 0 positive feedback on ur map.

Sincerely,
The entire ST community

I_think_I_own wrote:

P.S. chakra if u are reading this.... DO NOT EVER decide to Make maps again on any game (sc2, wc3, etc) Under any circumstances. You have proved u have 0 mapmaking skills, have no experience, and have been ridiculed by the community with 0 positive feedback on ur map.

Sincerely,
The entire ST community

o.O Chakra has very impressive map making skills with lots of experience. He is capable of doing things your tiny little brain has idea of. Should he have not been a baby and kept editing the map yes, but everyone's human. I wouldn't say hes a bad map maker I would just say he likes to stand up for what he believes. And its people like you itio who killed st by constantly flaming gosu/chakra for not updating the map the way you want and made them feel like they were editing the map for jerks and so they figured why help a jerk. Honestly if I was the map maker in there position I would just made a command that kicked your account/ip from the game when it started, however they conducted themselves more politely and just stopped editing it in general.

Also wc3 is dead you can not convince me that dota is alive no matter how many games they host HoN/LoL/Dota 2 are so much more popular then dota. The only kids still playing dota are those who cannot afford a decent computer to play a real game so they just play Wc3.

We had a huge boom just some months ago, in euro atleast. Full games all night long, mass americans coming to play, tournaments, active forums, newcomers getting active etc etc.

I would say the immaturity (?) of the "legends" - Just fight over map, hacks etc - when they don't get what they want they swap to DOTA again, same guys swapping to dota has "killed" ST twice. Ofc it's their own choice if they don't like the map or whatever.

We would have needed to keep those guys in ST instead of them gonig DOTA. Having a active mapmaker who would make maps to try out would have been great. Madhatters tried his best - I think he did great, behh didnt even put his maps on bot so it didnt spread in europe.

I still think and hope we get another boom, it's so fucking funny to play full-houses-legends-games.

And I think Chakra is the least reason to why ST got killed, stop try to find a scapegoat when it's urself who is one.

2 major problems.

1. People stopped playing WC 3 which have slowed down newrecrution.
2. We have stopped developing the map which have made us weaker to competition from other maps (like dota).

Typical sidey slander topic. How does this add anything to the forums? By flaming people and forcing responses and people to come at their defense you're not promoting activity, but rather promoting, ultimately, flamewars.

Anyone with a brain (note itio himself said 90% of euros believe, and thus it's only true that 90% of euros have no brain) knows that sheep tag is a MINIGAME which peaked over 6 years ago (LOL!). Dota is the only real custom game that has lived actively throughout the years.

I'd say it was a hell of a run and we should THANK chakra and gosu for updating the map for so many years even if it didn't necessarily coincide with everyone's map preference.

In short;

Haters gonna hate.

drew is the main snake ofc. the nutcases who blindly follow drews bad ideas are just as guilty as chakra/gosu. the only difference between chakra and beer/cele is that chakra had the power to edit the map. similarly, various euros like pab/traxx/exa etc are just as guilty as shoop for supporting his ''no invis'' stuff, and taking a final knockout punch on the barely surviving ST scene.

you can't blame shoop for genuinely trying to improve the map anymore than you can blame the people who supported his crazy ideas. atleast shoop has the guts to fight for what he thinks is good. if EVERYONE wanted the stack/invis back(including shoop), do you think pab/traxx would fight to keep it out of the map? ofc not ^^ they jump on any ship that offers least resistance(cba debate vs shoop constantly), and usually just side with the perceived majority on any issue. those type of people are much more harmful than shoop. they could just as easily have supported magoos idea to put goldmines in the corners of the map if magoo kept pressuring them constantly on bnet.



that being said, its understandable that people wanna remove stacks/invis/whatever from the map. this automatically brings them closer to people like amir in skill => more fun for the average/good players, less fun for the best players. this is inevitable in a closed community(0 recruits) where people stop improving after years of practice, and need other means to improve their win-rate in ST, thus increase their fun.

oh, and traxx.. ofc st died because people moved to dota/quit playing/whatever. you dont need to be einstein to figure this out. obviously they started playing dota/quit sheeptagging for a reason which is directly related to the ST map. how can you not see that you gotta figure out WHY people moved to dota, and not hold ''people moved to dota'' as the reason ST died?

the chain goes: st lost value -> people moved to dota/quit playing....NOT the other way around. fucking insane that people still use "st died because people started playing dota" as the reason st died. this is equivalent of saying "1+1=3 because my brother is older than me" in math class.

Gets boring reading posts where people think individuals are the ones at fault. Lol.

In 2009 WC3 was the fifth most played computer game in the world. Today it is 22nd. LoL and CoD are both 35 times more popular.
To say the game is just as active as it once was is a complete and obvious lie. LoL came out AFTER WC3 "peaked" (a month later).

While I did have map control, I had given the map out to numerous people who themselves could have given it out. Yes, I kept it secret that I did, but I did give it out to at least Hawkys and Madhatters (though I'm not sure the latter used it). I gave the map to anyone who asked and I deemed competent enough. Who would have continued modifying the map? Even if I didn't, anyone could have tried to make their own map. Unsurprisingly, many tried--all failed.

Drew is a player. He has no real "power." He never (or very rarely) exorcised people from the community--not for any reason. He couldn't for you'd need agreement among all of the main guys.


Anyway, it's silly even responding to this. Those with a brain know the answer is obvious. WC3 is down majorly. With this, we have no new players. Everyone has already been exposed to ST. They don't like it. I can see why--it's turned into a team massing vs. cutting game... something many "pros," let alone newbs, don't enjoy much.
Those without a brain will continue throwing shit at everyone else.

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

drew is the main snake ofc. the nutcases who blindly follow drews bad ideas are just as guilty as chakra/gosu. the only difference between chakra and beer/cele is that chakra had the power to edit the map. similarly, various euros like pab/traxx/exa etc are just as guilty as shoop for supporting his ''no invis'' stuff, and taking a final knockout punch on the barely surviving ST scene.

you can't blame shoop for genuinely trying to improve the map anymore than you can blame the people who supported his crazy ideas. atleast shoop has the guts to fight for what he thinks is good. if EVERYONE wanted the stack/invis back(including shoop), do you think pab/traxx would fight to keep it out of the map? ofc not ^^ they jump on any ship that offers least resistance(cba debate vs shoop constantly), and usually just side with the perceived majority on any issue. those type of people are much more harmful than shoop. they could just as easily have supported magoos idea to put goldmines in the corners of the map if magoo kept pressuring them constantly on bnet.



that being said, its understandable that people wanna remove stacks/invis/whatever from the map. this automatically brings them closer to people like amir in skill => more fun for the average/good players, less fun for the best players. this is inevitable in a closed community(0 recruits) where people stop improving after years of practice, and need other means to improve their win-rate in ST, thus increase their fun.

that's bullshit Amir, i think that if u ask the majority most will vote for no invis, if u have not noticed that amir your blind, non the less u tell people your quitting st and they should do the same or that u wouldnt keep play in their places, invis is not rellevant for the inactivity, so befor u make a knockout on me i think u should ask peops yourself, im one of many who votes for no invis.

1) Chakra
2) Chaise
3) Amir

Chakra for obvious reasons... He was drews little pet for most of his st years and any bogus map change drew or shoop wanted he would implement to the map.

Chaise being such a powerful leader in the euro community and having so many lickies saw amir dotaing and decided to hop on the amir bandwagon and started massively playing dota. So ofcourse his lickies followed suit. This should be expected since he has so much influence in the community. The leader of a clan that has almost every member in the st community main game should not be dota...

Amir quit st because he didnt get his way... Not only does he have some influence as well in the community but tries desperately to get others to quit st and come dota with him as well.

Everyone uses the escuse that they want 5v5 ect but yeee only way we gonna get 5v5 if people join first. Turd logic by a lot of kids in this community. This way of thinking was started by chaise and amir ofc.

lol niceguy i love you but you are a TURD ^^


We must learn to understand proximate and ultimate causes oke?

Proximate cause of sheep tag's death = People prefer dota

Ultimate cause of sheep tag's death = The map sucks due to chakra/shoop/drew/gosu

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

drew is the main snake ofc. the nutcases who blindly follow drews bad ideas are just as guilty as chakra/gosu. the only difference between chakra and beer/cele is that chakra had the power to edit the map. similarly, various euros like pab/traxx/exa etc are just as guilty as shoop for supporting his ''no invis'' stuff, and taking a final knockout punch on the barely surviving ST scene.

you can't blame shoop for genuinely trying to improve the map anymore than you can blame the people who supported his crazy ideas. atleast shoop has the guts to fight for what he thinks is good. if EVERYONE wanted the stack/invis back(including shoop), do you think pab/traxx would fight to keep it out of the map? ofc not ^^ they jump on any ship that offers least resistance(cba debate vs shoop constantly), and usually just side with the perceived majority on any issue. those type of people are much more harmful than shoop. they could just as easily have supported magoos idea to put goldmines in the corners of the map if magoo kept pressuring them constantly on bnet.



that being said, its understandable that people wanna remove stacks/invis/whatever from the map. this automatically brings them closer to people like amir in skill => more fun for the average/good players, less fun for the best players. this is inevitable in a closed community(0 recruits) where people stop improving after years of practice, and need other means to improve their win-rate in ST, thus increase their fun.

I just want to play sheeptag, for me you can add flying cats with super-beams and i'd still play. I just said i didn't want stacks back - cus I find it more fun without. lol

Effloresce wrote:

lol niceguy i love you but you are a TURD ^^


We must learn to understand proximate and ultimate causes oke?

Proximate cause of sheep tag's death = People prefer dota

Ultimate cause of sheep tag's death = The map sucks due to chakra/shoop/drew/gosu

The reason why st died is because of the people playing it and the leaders of the community. But yee thats my opinion. The map sucking is also an opinion. People have always preferred dota even when st was at its peak so that statement didnt make much sense.

Sheeptag is dying because Wacraft III is dying, but it has survived this long because of brilliant decisions around the map such as the removal of stackfarm, and our best hope is to continue having a constructive discussion about how to improve it. Right now for instance we should remove invis.

The map sucks. It's boring, plain, dull, and simple. This is the main reason why ST died. Thus, we can blame the mapmakers, chakra/gosusheep for the downfall of the ST community.

Nice-guy I like you but I think you're BATSHIT crazy so I won't reply to you

Shoop is obviously talking bullshit as usual. The problem has never been that we haven't had enough players in the community - the problem has ALWAYS been that players in the community don't play the map.

This means, necessarily, that the problem lies with the map. A map raped and pillaged by the ideas of Drew, Gosu, Chakra, and Shoop.

These are DISGUSTING people.

shoop and trollpro have the craziest posts ive read in a while. trollpro and shoop are SO FAR out in space that noone in this community can contemplate how their posts have anything to do with reality.

as for niceguy, i'll just quote myself

Quote :

the chain goes: st lost value -> people moved to dota/quit playing

if the map was good => me and chaise(or whoever) wouldn't have quit ST. if shoop didnt ruin the map once again => perhaps we would still be playing ST. if exa/traxx/horsebrains didn't support shoop just to avoid his nagging and bitching on bnet => perhaps ST would still be played daily.

as traxx said, we had great activity merely months ago, while this ghosttown of a community plays one game per week now. can ANYONE explain this fall in activity without using shoops ''no invis'' crusade as the main(perhaps only) reason?

no, st didn't die the last 2 months because of dota, nor because of time. and no, 100% of our recruiting didn't stop after we removed the stack 3-4 years ago because wc3 was dying, nor because of dota. and if the overwhelming majority really were against invis, why don't you play your no-invis games now? people pretend to be against invis to avoid shoops boring ranting. use your brain, freakshows

Amir
Explain why playing with a mode that people find funnier would kill activity?

If ST was getting worse, why did you play the newer maps instead of older? It didn't get worse; and if it did, not by much. It didn't get boring because the map changed, it got boring because it didn't--because it was always the same thing over and over. Your actions were akin to listening to bad music simply because you didn't know good music existed.

The mazing community is similar. It is very small and all the maps are relatively the same. Yes, they are good, fun maps, but not something the majority of people can do over and over. Old mazes that were popular over all of B.Net, such as Polar Escape, Platform Escape, Maze of Honor, etc, were all very different from each other. Why? Because no one likes doing the same thing over and over.

Why does DotA have more than a mid lane? Because having one would seriously hinder the amount of shit you can be doing. ST has always had one lane--the idea of two was met with harsh hostility.



To blame a simple mapmaker is retarded. All mapmakers--me, Gosu, mazers, developers of DotA--give what the community wants. If we didn't, the maps simply wouldn't be played. The core of the game could be made in a single day. Hell, Doh and others made public, easy-to-modify maps available. No one gave a second shit. Kids like Amir say they don't have time--yet they are on B.Net 9 hours a day, seven days a week, year round. Look at my old "channel activity" thread--they were CLEARLY on. They didn't map-make not because they don't know how or are incompetent--anyone can do it. They didn't do it because they didn't care. They are lazy.

How lazy are they? They developed a system in which they declared westies the technocrats, Europeans the "theorycrafters" and east w/e. Guess what? Managing things, such as STWC, forums, and mapmaking, takes time. Theorycrafting? That is something you do idly in your head. You do it sitting in your Introduction to Philosophy class. You do it to avoid writing your essay. You do it because you have nothing else to do.

Mapmaking? Yes, it can be "interesting." But most the time it is very frustrating--especially when no one else in the community gives a damn. Very few people would ever help me test. And those who did? Drew. Grim. Ecid. 008. And what are all these people known for? They are disliked. The only people who fucking ever help with ANYTHING are the most attacked members of the community. And the de facto most attacked members are the ones developing the fucking map.

We aren't attacked because of the shit we do. But what is different about us? We don't constantly switch sides of debates for the sole reason to debate. We don't pointlessly argue. We don't stalemate possible map changes. We don't use personal attacks to push an agenda. No, we are attacked because we get stuff done.

Because we do something, we can be attacked. Amir? What did he do? Nothing-he can't be attacked. ITIO? Nothing. Niceguy? Nothing. Sidey? Nothing. Nothing Nothing Nothing.
Theorycrafting is something everyone does. It isn't work. It is thinking. I don't get paid for thinking of cool programs. I get paid for making cool programs.
Your guys are all pointless.

You are looking for blame when you are obviously at fault. The game was popular. Then people played it for a few years. It grew repetitive and boring. People stopped playing it.

But here's the map. All the maps I have. Let's watch as nothing gets done.

rofl chakra. such a nasty post

YOU chose to listen to drew, and only drew. everyone tried to help you through suggesting and explaining game dynamics to you. instead you sit on drews lap and say "what should we do with the map today, daddy?". you can hide behind the "shoop and drew had best arguments" statement you've used for years (which is bullshit in itself, shoop didnt even understand how "harder" and "more mastery" are not synonym terms in the stack debate lol...) but how is it possible that you dont even admit the mistake of listening to their ideas, for example removing the stack? how is it possible that traxx doesn't admit that starting to play no-invis games had a major hit on activity recently? the evidence and results are staring you right in the face. you are all rationalizing your poor choices and blaming others when YOU'RE the ones that have had influence on the map. for gods sake, how can you even think about blaming me/itio/sidey/niceguy/chaise? are you out of your MIND? god damn creationist. YOU influenced the course of the map. DREW influenced the course of the map. the map turned out to be shit. YOU/DREW are responsible. 1+1=2.

ST only has "1 lane" because you made the map that way. thats the point. the game could have had MUCH more depth, more variation, more MASTERY...you chose to go the opposite way. you made a game where cutting is the only viable wolfing option. you made cornermassing the best strategy. there has been a shitload of ideas to improve the map and make it more attracting. i have always supported all of these ideas. so has everyone else you think ''did nothing for the map''.





now, can anyone explain the MAJOR fall in activity the last 2 months without appealing to shoops "no invis" stuff?

Sheep tag, as a game , is insanely competetive and fun to play when u get fullhouse/5v5. Problem is many people(me,others) dislike playing 2v4 and thats why
i switch to dota when i get bored, i think most of people would still be willing to play sheep tag if there would be a chance for fullhouse games.

Speaking about map problems, i think actually changing the map wouldn't hurt anyone a bit. And im not talking about stack. I'm talking in general. Map became too boring as time passed, so mapmakers need to make it more fun and interactive. Removing invis is a really bad idea, i'd rather increase sheep sight or any other way to counter invis rather than just remove it.


Note these are only my ideas how to improve the situation , but if map is going to be as it is now, sheep tag is going to die completely. There are alot of discussions
who killed the map, who is responsible for it, or problems with lack of players, but my main point is first we have to change the actual map and then attract players.

peace outs