Some More Revo

Sheep Tag ReVoLuTiOn 7.2.7M

http://www.epicwar.com/maps/198536/

>Fixed Desync problem
>Fixed a few fatal errors
>Changed -smart X so more than one player changes teams in a 5v5/6v6 game.


Sheep Tag ReVoLuTiOn 7.2.6M

http://www.epicwar.com/maps/196993/

>Fixed all those glitches that were found.
>Removed c30 and -buy 2c.
>Escape now toggles your leaderboard if you aren't selecting one of your units.
>Chakra Anti-Maphack added.
>New commands: -balance x -autobalance x -avgtimes.

New Command Explanations:
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-balance X = A new way of determining teams. Instead of basing the teams on how many times each player has been with another player(or randomly), balance attempts to create teams that have average combined time as sheep.

Example:
Red has 3 minutes as sheep
Blue has 4 minutes as sheep
Teal has 5 minutes as sheep
Purple has 6 minutes as sheep.
They all have equal sheep count.

If you type -balance 2, the teams will always be Red/Purple and Blue/Teal.
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-autobalance X = the same as -auto X, except it uses balance to repeatedly start instead of smart. You can also use -auto -X to achieve the same thing.
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-avgtimes = Shows each player's average sheep round length(which is used to determine the teams in -balance X) and the combined average round length.

Nice, can we make this thread official for Revo so you post all updates as edits to your first post? Will be much easier later on. If so we can also make it a sticky.

is the sheep time based on individual survival time or team survival time?

if you've managed to put a functioning anti-mh into your map, we're gonna need to implement the invis again

Yes this can be the official revo thread.

Team survival time, but I suppose it would be better to use individual... something for the next version.

Why would we readd an item that destroys the game if we got rid of maphack?

Removing invis had nothing to do with maphack.

if you want to debate the invis go make a thread for it. this thread will be ruined if we debate everything here. this is for feedback/updates/suggestions. ill give u a short reply, but make a new thread if u want to have full debate.



the invis got removed because of overwhelming support due to people who were just sick of maphackers having a crazy advantage. now that a big part of the reason people wanted invis removed is gone, we can discuss other alternatives to removing it(balancing, counters, keeping it as it is, etc).

the majority of the people who want invis removed, regardless of maphack, want it gone because there is no way to avoid being sniped in certain situations, no matter how good you are. given that we get a functioning anti-MH system, sideys ideas for countering the invis rather than removing them are MUCH better suited. we need to stop removing everything from the map because it doesn't fit in the current map. rather balance it out.

We already decided to remove invis, and that decision had nothing to do with maphack. If you want to take that debate again I suggest you make a topic about it.

Anyway, Imo we should focus on making the map playable. Fixing bugs, see if the anti maphack works, balance it, etc before we take that debate. My first suggestion in the balance area is that we remove the cashfarm, except that it would lead to much needed nerfing of the sheep it also goes hand in hand with the philosophy that we should emphasize massingspeed, runtag and gameunderstanding more.

Quote :

we should emphasize massingspeed, runtag and gameunderstanding

sounds great coming from someone who argued for removing the stack-farm

the invis is the only thing which keeps massing speed relevant atm. addition of stacks would make massing speed even more relevant. same goes for runtag. and emphasizing gameunderstanding by removing every ounce of skill from the map isn't exactly the best idea we've heard rofl gameundersting stays the same, skill(massing speed and runtag) become relevant with the addition of stacks + invis. but make a thread if you want to debate this. there is no reason to spam this topic.



anyway, since shoop doesn't want to argue for removing the invis i guess we'll just add it alongside the other mapchanges until someone makes a good case for removing invis. keep in mind that the gameplay around the invis will be changed. it wont be like the current revo. we're going to make it good and fun

I got no problem arguing for invis, but an hour ago you wrote this wasnt the topic for it.

Quote :

if you want to debate the invis go make a thread for it. this thread will be ruined if we debate everything here.

How do you want it?

Since there already is a topic for invis (https://sheeptag.forumotion.net/t12-say-goodbye-to-maphack) my suggestion is that we take the discussion there so we leave this topic open for a more general discussion around the map. Then you can also answer to the arguments against invis you yourself made around 2 weeks ago :

Quote :

the problem is the effect it has on ST. invis makes it boring for your allies(one less wolf to help isolate) and it makes it boring for sheep(one less wolf to pressure/isolate, and they have to mass slow to avoid getting sniped). its always more fun when ur sheep to die because the wolves play well and pressure you than if you get sniped due bad reflexes, and its more fun for the wolfs to isolate sheep and get kills that way than to do whatever and hope the one play whos lucky enough to invis gets a kill. there is only 1 player out of 12 whos fun increases with the invis.


invis rewards skill, we agree, but the impact on ST is still negative. you can't just add any mastery without considering the impact it has on the gameplay. same goes for variation/''more paths of gameplay''. mastery/variety can only be used as an argument if the negative sides that come with the item are very small or nonexistent.

But you are the moderator, we can take it anywhere you want.

this isn't the topic for a debate shoop. make a new topic if u want to debate the invis.


there are positive and negative sides to every idea. you weigh the positives against the negatives. with maphack being taken care of, there is no longer a strong reason to remove the invis, even tho there might be negative sides to keeping it. the positives outweight the negatives by alot now.

you have to refute all the arguments made for the invis in previous threads if you want to debate this topic. the argument you quoted is valid, but so are the 100 for keeping the invis i made it very clear that the main reason we should remove the invis is because it's the only solution to the maphack problem, while keeping the invis is not the only solution to a better map.

Ok, so we stop bringing up invis in this topic then?

im pretty sure that im just replying to your posts/questions. it wouldn't make much sense for me to start a new thread to answer your questions instead of you just making a new thread and asking whatever you want about the invis, would it?

after every post of yours i've replied to, i've told you to create a new thread if you want to debate/ask questions.

i dont have anything to add to the invis discussion since it was already won by the invis-supporters on the old forums, but if you have any new arguments/questions, feel free to make a debate in a new thread.




edit: this is a reply to a post shoop edited, asking why it was OK to argue for the invis but not against it. and yeah, stop creating a debate here shoopie

Okey.

On to the map :

Have anyone tried it? If so did the antimaphack work and were there any other bugs we should be concerned about?

I noticed in the last version that the sheep were way too powerfull and I think we should deal with this issue as soon as possible if we want the map to get somewhat official status. My suggestion is that we remove the cashfarm, except for obvious balanceissue there is a bigger argument behind it that Ive made in another topic

Quote :

Assuming you invest in cashfarm you give up gold(=advantage in start) for gold(=advantage) later in game. This is the opposite of we want. Infact this is one of the biggest problems in sheeptag. A team investing early on in cashfarm risk dying very quickly beacause they do not have the gold to defend themselves with, but on the other hand IF they survive they are basicly impossible to kill in the end leading to games either being too quick to be fun or really boring for everyone beacause the wolves have no chance.

I think its time we stop treating every feature in sheep tag as sacred and start question each part of it. This doesnt mean we should change or remove everything. Infact it doesnt have to mean that we change or remove anything, but the fact that something is in the map is not a very good argument to why it should be in the map. Cashfarm is a great example of that. It have been in the map forever and therefore I think a lot of people just assume there is a reason behind it. But is there really?

I also want to be clear again the main reason to remove cashfarm isnt balanceissues, I think it should be removed anyway and in a longer perspective balance is never an argument, alone, to keep, remove or add something. Its more of a bonus. There are always ways to balance a map, if not by removing cashfarm by doing something else. Or removing cashfarm and doing something else. Therefore I hope people look at the "real" argument behind it.

if you can survive early without wasting all your gold(investing in cash) = you have easier time winning late. if you can't survive early without wasting all your gold = you die early because you make cash-farms or you can't survive lategame. this means that the cashfarm benefits skilled players, and even more so the players that are both skilled and have a good gameunderstanding(knowing when to make cash-farms).

the problem with your argument is that it applies to a shitload of stuff. buy golems = either you win fast or its impossible to win late. str potion/beam = same story. invis = same story.


the 2-20 problem is great as far as im concerned. i have a higher probability of making 20 minutes than a noob. you want to remove/limit the ability to win fast due to skill and to last long due to skill, which means that everyone will have a more even lasting-time. i will survive 11 minutes, noobs will survive 9 minutes. comprehendos?

Well I feel like I answered this post in the other topic so I guess we can leave this one for balance/bug issues and to check if the anti maphack works.

Btw how is the lag now? A lot of people complained on the last version but it was a lot better than old revo for me.

can you copy or state your reply? or give me a link to the thread if possible.



im up for testing no cash-farms tho. cash-farms offer 0 entertainment value in themselves apart from making me win more than noobs, they just make you waste time running to corners to build them. if we could add a balanced accelerating gold income for the sheep, and remove claws/goldsharing, we would remove the pointless running from shop to shop to buy items and running to corners to make cashfarms.

this would be interesting to test out. but dont implement it in the real map, we could make a trial version to test it out. would be massive fun to try various radical changes to the map after playing the same standard shit for years.

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

can you copy or state your reply? or give me a link to the thread if possible.



im up for testing no cash-farms tho. cash-farms offer 0 entertainment value in themselves apart from making me win more than noobs, they just make you waste time running to corners to build them. if we could add a balanced accelerating gold income for the sheep, and remove claws/goldsharing, we would remove the pointless running from shop to shop to buy items and running to corners to make cashfarms.

this would be interesting to test out. but dont implement it in the real map, we could make a trial version to test it out. would be massive fun to try various radical changes to the map after playing the same standard shit for years.

I'm down for testing, but I think this map would get super boring super fast theres no dynamics. Idea of sheep tag now expand outward make savings push back inward repeat. Now its just gonna be MAss mAssa fbfbfbfbffbfbfbfbff. And wolves cutting. You guys are removing what makes sheep tag sheep tag to try to make a game that your going to realize is super dull and boring. Then again it could be epic so who am i to judge, but i just think the more fluff the more fun, but will see

We cant remove claws(and I assume cloak would be removed as well) and still allow sheep to build strong/upgraded farms... I have no desire to take 9/6 hits to kill a farm.

The more I think about this idea the more I like it.

Lets do this though
Remove gold in general
Remove all farms except regular farm
Remove saving sheep (if sheep dies there farms stay, but they are gone forever) this would make sure sheep keep massing and stop wasting time in mid as well as wolves have to cut instead of encourage sitting still at mid doing nothing.
Remove all items

After 5 minutes wolves get 2 hit
After 10 minutes sheep get upgrades (for free)
After 15 minutes wolves get 1 hit
At 18 minutes Sheep get strong farms (for free)
20 Minutes sheep win game
Basically it keeps going back and forth as to who has the advantage. We could actually implement more farms and increase wolves damage so we can switch back and forth every minute. Would be huge fun

I actually really like this idea and will make my own map this sounds epicly fun. Hell mad add a custom function -just sheep tag

That implements this mode whose with me?

Updated. See first post.

Madhatters are you still working on ST maps?

Talk with Doh-San @ chatcraft.net/forum
He's making a map. Sounds nice.

I checked the forums and none of those maps seems to be sheep tag.

Not currently doing anything with revo, but thats more because I don't know what more to do.

Uhm, did you really check?

http://www.chatcraft.net/forum/?topic=1573.msg14945;topicseen#new