say goodbye to MAPHACK

Posts : 608 Join date : 2012-01-21

time to remove invis from the map. as everyone knows, im a fan of the invis item. but it has to go to get rid of the insane advantage maphackers get. no other way.

any protest? if not we should make this happened as soon as possible, and start prohibiting invis from inhouses until it gets removed.

Posts : 139 Join date : 2012-01-20

I'm down for that. I will also be glad that any SERIOUS games ( tournaments , serious versus) would be played as soon as possible without invis. These are the games that maphack provides help.

Posts : 161 Join date : 2012-01-21

lets remove riki from dota also, cuz some ppl might maphack

Posts : 753 Join date : 2012-01-20

Yeah!

Posts : 161 Join date : 2012-01-21

no seriously, who has maphacked in a st game yet? no one. I have invis sniped EVERYONE. Anyways, there are plenty ways of detecting a maphacker. For instance, you can see in replay if the maphacker selects something he shouldnt be able to, or you can just use a program like Hillo did when he busted twix. We should perma ban, whoever that's a proven maphacker, from the community and games to prevent people from maphacking...

This is just another retarded idea from shoop to remove skill from st. it's so sad amir, that youve been manipulated by shoop lol. Weak-brain.

Invis contributes to a more skillfull game, creating more paths of gameplay.

With invis, you can actually make a difference, even tho u got Night, turbo12 and paradise[behh] on ur team and the map is filled with farms.
You can do multiple strategies if your team know how to teamwork with an inviser.
You get more pressure on ur ass as a sheep, u always know that someone's out there.
etc etc

all these pros leads to more mastery and a funnier game

the only con at the moment is that invis can't be avoided if it's timed perfectly. We only need to add stacks back or this anti-invis stack, and the problem will be solved.

But still, all these pros overweight the chance of someone cheating.

Posts : 608 Join date : 2012-01-21

maphackers get advantage from invis

people who dont wanna wolf buy invis and dont do shit

games get ruined if there is more than 1 invis at any point, and we cant controll this

as much as i like the item when its used correctly by a good player like myself, it has to be removed. sorry.

Posts : 161 Join date : 2012-01-21

do u realize how dumb this sounds?

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:: maphackers get advantage from invis

doped football players get advantage from running and shooting, should we therefore make football like chess?

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:: people who dont wanna wolf buy invis and dont do shit

dont do shit? u mean afking? u can clearly see if someone's afking.

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:: games get ruined if there is more than 1 invis at any point, and we cant controll this.

first of all, there are tactics including 2 invis. but if the captain dont want more than 1 invis it is always the 2nd invis fault for mutliple invis. We can just set a rule, np.

Posts : 608 Join date : 2012-01-21

doped players get busted through piss-tests. its usually bad to develoup the map based only on countering hacks, but in ST it will lead to better/funner games. we've discussed many other ways, but there is no practical solution to de maphax problem. as i said, there is nothing wrong with the item when used correctly, but it ruins many games when several people go invis at the same time + gives massive advantage to maphackers. two big problems in ST today.

the problem is the effect it has on ST. invis makes it boring for your allies(one less wolf to help isolate) and it makes it boring for sheep(one less wolf to pressure/isolate, and they have to mass slow to avoid getting sniped). its always more fun when ur sheep to die because the wolves play well and pressure you than if you get sniped due bad reflexes, and its more fun for the wolfs to isolate sheep and get kills that way than to do whatever and hope the one play whos lucky enough to invis gets a kill. there is only 1 player out of 12 whos fun increases with the invis.

invis rewards skill, we agree, but the impact on ST is still negative. you can't just add any mastery without considering the impact it has on the gameplay. same goes for variation/''more paths of gameplay''. mastery/variety can only be used as an argument if the negative sides that come with the item are very small or nonexistent.

Posts : 753 Join date : 2012-01-20

The skillargument is flawed beacause on the same time as it rewards a certain type of skill you get less of a reward for other skills such as minimapawareness as sheep(if it wasnt for invis a sheep with good understanding of where his allies and the wolves were could dominate much easier in the sense that he could make expansion into terrotory they could see but dont have controll of). If you could do this you also reward people who are good at quick thinking and farmplacement more since they can quickly "reoccupy" terrotory the wolves have controll of.

Also since the wolves get this weapon it says itself that through balanceissues other ways of wolfing has to be less rewarded so by removing invis we further reward the people who have good positioning as wolf, who are good cutters, who have good imageuse etc.

Sure invissniping rewards a certain kind of skill, mainly patience as sheep and knowledge about where the true sight line is + timing as wolf, but it also derewards a lot of other skillaspects. Ive said this before, the discussion isnt that it adds less or more skill. The discussion is which set of skills we want in sheep tag. By removing invis we will get a less repetitive game with higher pace since expansion will be a lot easier which will allow us to change the balance in a direction where pressure on the sheep is a lot higher. Todays sheep tag is extremly tactical, based on minimizing misstakes. Invissniping is one of the biggest reasons for this. If we remove it we will get a game which is more focused on challenging to the sheep on an individual level (massingspeed, farmplacement, runtag etc will be more valueble) but perhaps less on a tactical and team level.

This is I think the main reason along with the maphack issue more and more people want invis removed. Both are good enough on their own Imo but a little difference. But obviously the maphack argument is the most accute and basicly leave us no choice unless we find a way to 100 % prevent maphack if we want tournaments to be taken seriously.

Posts : 425 Join date : 2012-01-21

I agree with the non-invis'ing.
But it will make the game easier for Sheep imo.
THey know that no1 is invis = they can build however they want. They just have to take care of the wolves where are they focusing to.
Or maybe im wrong?
Could be good for wolves also to have another Cutter.

Posts : 81 Join date : 2012-01-21

Is this topic addressed to me and telling me to remove invis or have I been replaced as mapmaker?

Posts : 753 Join date : 2012-01-20

If you do your job I got no problem with you making maps. I dont see why we need an official mapmaker though. The best would be if the map was free to edit by anyone.

Posts : 27 Join date : 2012-01-22

I honestly don't understand why people think invis is so good... A decent wolf with 2 hits and an image can hold a side just as good as invis if not better. The only use of it is the element of surprise and if the sheep have good map awareness that is removed. Thus making the wolf completely useless or just holding back the team if used incorectly which 90% of the community use it wrong. That gold could be used to pool for a quicker 1 hit instead of hoping for a luck kill based on someones reflexes or someone who is not looking at the minimap... Invis just encourages lazy wolfing for people who don't want to do shit except wait for their sheep turn while the others are working their ass off getting flamed by shoop for "poor positioning" instead of having an extra wolf to help them isolate the sheep. Also it encourages maphacking, i see no good that comes out of invis... Also it makes sheeping less fun/boring which i think everyone agrees on. This is really bad being that the only reason why people play sheeptag is for the sheeping.

Posts : 608 Join date : 2012-01-21

it would be great if you kept making a map madhatters. there is noone else editing atm.

also whats happening with 1way? are u develouping that or is it pretty much finished?

Posts : 81 Join date : 2012-01-21

After I couldn't find the latest version of one way on any bot I stopped editing it. But then I also don't know what more to add to it.

Posts : 608 Join date : 2012-01-21

well i dont wanna distract too much from the main point of the thread, but i think a map like 1way = needs constant change/new ''fluff''. thats basically what made it so fun, moreso than the actual ''capture the flag and runtag'' part.

is anyone except beeeh against removing invis at this point? i dont see a point in debating this if its the vast majority of the community vs 1-2 dudes.

Posts : 81 Join date : 2012-01-21

Invis has already been removed, a new map should be out soon. X has been completely fixed and I haven't found any other glitches yet.

Posts : 215 Join date : 2012-01-21

Madhatters wrote:: Invis has already been removed, a new map should be out soon. X has been completely fixed and I haven't found any other glitches yet.

How lagging?

Posts : 81 Join date : 2012-01-21

I would say it lags less than or a similar amount as the revolution we have now. Chakra's X trigger is still more efficient by a tiny bit I believe, but I make up for it in my cloak triggers and overall reduced map size.

Posts : 753 Join date : 2012-01-20

Make a thread and upload your map and we will try it.

Posts : 425 Join date : 2012-01-21

yUP. i'd upload as fast as possible(: