Invis potion and INDIVIDUALITY

So me and shoop had a discussion, and i said the reason the same people who support the stack are the people who support the invis is because we want more individuality in the game. shoop said "i want that as well". long story short, the discussion lead to "you dont understand my point" "no, its you who dont understand" etc.

shoop told me not to re-state his arguments on the forums because i would get them wrong. i could just have posted the bot-logs, but fuck it. let shoop explain his views.




my claim: the invis potion adds more individuality for the wolfs compared to if you remove it, regardless of what balance changes you do. this doesn't apply if you're adding other sorts of individuality(meathook + mirana arrow etc). simply removing the invis and buffing claws(to maintain balance) leads to less individuality for wolfs, and more dependence on your teammates.

reason: i can get kills by myself with 5 newbeginners on my team with the use of invis. i can't get any kills as a onehitter if the rest of my team are newbeginners. i get kills by myself with the invis because im skilled. i wont get any kills by onehitting vs a team of 5 if my allies are clueless, no matter how skilled i am.

I'm going to explain the positives and the negatives of invis :

Positives:

1. With one invis wolf , u can stop expantion of sheeps from one side , giving wolfs a high advantage to isolate and to cut farms.
2. With invis , u can easily get kills from sheep which are not careful and risk way too much.
3. Invis requires individual skill to get kills properly , thats why better players get more kills while lower skilled less.

Negatives:
1. the biggest problem invis causes is that when u dont GET kills with invis , your wolf team gives up. This is a monster arguement why invis should be removed. Basically if one wolf fails to invis properly , ur team loses the wolf round.
2. When people are bored and cba wolf , they mostly use invis and completely ruin the round. This causes for other players to wolf 10/20 minutes because 1/2/3 players went invis due to being bored as hell.


From these examples u can see that invis has got both positives and negatives and we have to discuss whether invis should be buffed or removed. I think nobody argues that invis shouldn't be buffed. Main point is whether we should remove it or keep it and buff it.

One of the solutions i bring is that we should make invis to be available ONLY for one wolf each round. This way there won't be 2/3 invises at once and game won't be ruined.

I will update this later with more arguements.

Invis isnt hard lol, where have you gotten this idea from? Invis is extremly easy and requires basically no skill at all. Learn true sigh distance and you are good to go.´

If we remove invis we can change balance so that the payoff for the parts of wolfing that actually requires skill gets higher, then it will be possible to shine as an individual. Today wolfing is a joke and it basically doesnt matter who is in your team, its just about getting lucky with invis.

Amir and gang: Isn't sheep tag supposed to be a team game? To compare with football (both u and shoop like it): A team with 1 messi and 10 losers shouldn't be able to get goals from like "dribble-points". Ur not supposed to win/get kills if you are alone wolf with 5 noobs vs 6 pros. You are supposed to be huge dependent on ur wolf mates, isn't this the whole point why we play 5on5 and not 1on1?



SHoop and gang (just shoop?): U saying wolfing aint skills nowadays but just to get invis kills and that you could play with any team mates is just false. Team freaky shit in sidey tourney was a gathering of many pro wolves which proved that we wolfed very good, with no invis, the combination of our good wolfing was key to win.

Yes if noone in your team uses invis you can take advantage of your skill. But not nearly enough since we must adjust balance after invis. If we remove invis and do changes to maintain balance the other aspects of wolfing will become more effectfull and it will be much bigger differences between good and bad wolves.

Besides in 99 % of the games someone gets invis which basically includes no skill at all, and then whole team is depending on the invissniper getting lucky. To oversimplify it.

Individual skill as I see it can also include a lot of teamgame aspect. Messi dont succeed with dribbles only beacause he is good at dribbling and is fast. He also makes to right runs so that players can pass him in positions where he can take advantage of this. He is also himself a good passingplayer, if he only had dribblingskills the defenders could focus on just that but since he have so many other individual skills they have to watch out for passes, shots, etc too and therefore he can take even bigger advantage of his dribbling.

An even better example of this was Zidane who dominated games as an individual through qualities that was individual but almost always served to put his teammates in better positions.

TraxxWOLF wrote:

Amir and gang: Isn't sheep tag supposed to be a team
game? To compare with football (both u and shoop like it): A team with 1
messi and 10 losers shouldn't be able to get goals from like
"dribble-points". Ur not supposed to win/get kills if you are alone wolf
with 5 noobs vs 6 pros. You are supposed to be huge dependent on ur
wolf mates, isn't this the whole point why we play 5on5 and not 1on1?

That's a point I'd actually like to see answered very much!

TraxxWOLF wrote:

SHoop and gang (just shoop?): U saying wolfing aint skills nowadays but just
to get invis kills and that you could play with any team mates is just
false. Team freaky shit in sidey tourney was a gathering of many pro
wolves which proved that we wolfed very good, with no invis, the
combination of our good wolfing was key to win.

Apart from the funny comment on shoop this pretty much reminded me of:

ShoresOfEden wrote:

Traxx "fuck this - i got sideygridderbelt"

@shoop:
nothing you post is a reply to my first post. what you hope happens isn't an argument. this:

Quote :

doesnt matter who is in your team, its just about getting lucky with invis.

agrees with my opening statement about the invis adding individuality, even tho saying that the invis is a luck-based item makes you look like a complete nut.

Quote :

An even better example of this was Zidane who dominated games as an individual through qualities that was individual but almost always served to put his teammates in better positions.

this is how the invis works. you advance your team and make it more likely that they win through purely individual skills. the removal of the invis = same as making one-touch football the only available style. sure, one-touches are INDIVIDUAL skills, but it doesn't add INDIVIDUALITY. you can't do SHIT alone with a ONE-TOUCH if your team is BAD. this is the SAME if you remove the INVIS from sheeptag. INVIS and DRIBBLES make you able to SCORE despite how GOOD or BAD your ALLIES are.

shoop sais something crazy and thinks he makes an argument. "lets remove the aura farm. i think through the proper balances and right adjustments, we are going to get a more runtag oriented game and less passive slow-massing where individual skill matters more!! it will also be much more fun for wolfs ".

does ANYONE think shoop makes a good case that the invis item removes individuality? lol...


@ night and traxx:
this thread is only about individuality. it DOESNT matter if st is supposed to be like this or that. im not arguing that invis has to be kept/removed because of my argument. shoop claims that the invis adds less individuality for wolfes than if you remove the invis and balance the game. ill reply to your posts later, but dont post off-topic until everyone realizes that shoop is a very crazy chicken. ^^ no more off-topic.


@ lakes:
stop spamming freakshow. i delete future spam.

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

my claim: the invis potion adds more individuality for the wolfs compared to if you remove it, regardless of what balance changes you do. this doesn't apply if you're adding other sorts of individuality(meathook mirana arrow etc). simply removing the invis and buffing claws(to maintain balance) leads to less individuality for wolfs, and more dependence on your teammates.

"Individuality (or selfhood) is the state or quality of being an individual; a person separate from other persons and possessing his or her own needs or goals. Being self expressive, independent."

Obviously invis adds more individuality compared to the pure teamplay you have when all wolves try to put pressure on the sheep by zoning/cornering. Invis often pushes sheep into the middle, thus zoning gets harder, but chance on lucky kills increases.

The question everyone thinks you implied not to nerf/remove invis has been answered. Yes, nerf it.
You hunting shoop doesn't bother a lot of people and I'm unsure wether invis is too easy or not, because he's right about the *just estimate true sight range and you get the kills*, but it's not easy to get an inviskill without any training...
Then again I still want to see the answer to the question traxx asked you about what you think about the comparison of st/football and it's teamplaying behaviour

and stop your meanie dictatorship-threats!

Lol, how much training do you need? Invis is an extremly easy item to use, basicly everyone who played st for a year, have an IQ over 50 and knows roughly where the true sight range is are equally good with it. Its not hard to time, its unbeliveble easy to understand where you should place yourself after that its factors which have nothing to do with your own skill to do if you get any kills.

To claim invissniping is something thats requires training or skill is a joke. Figure out where true sight range is and adjust your sniping after that, click and hope for the best.

Removing this item will give us the chance to make other aspects of wolfing, where you actually get rewarded for skill and training, more powerfull weapons. Such as imageblocking, positioning, reflexes in "1 on 1 situations", yeah the list goes on.

If we continue to compare with football invispotion is basicly similar to removing one player from the game in order to give him a gun he can shoot a ball on the other teams goal every 10 min with autoaim. Yes, that would add more variation and more "skill". But it would on the other be on the cost of less reward for "skills" that actually takes skill to master and not something a 10 year old can do with 1 weeks practice.

lakes, please stop spam with other topics the issue is whether invis isolated from other changes(apart from balancing) adds more or less individuality. nothing else matters. ill answer everything else afterwards/in other threads.

shoop

Quote :

Lol, how much training do you need? Invis is an extremly easy item to use, basicly everyone who played st for a year, have an IQ over 50 and knows roughly where the true sight range is are equally good with it. Its not hard to time, its unbeliveble easy to understand where you should place yourself after that its factors which have nothing to do with your own skill to do if you get any kills.

To claim invissniping is something thats requires training or skill is a joke. Figure out where true sight range is and adjust your sniping after that, click and hope for the best.

irrelevant to individuality and you just agreed that its not luck-based. i dont care if you think its easy to snipe.

Quote :

Removing this item will give us the chance to make other aspects of wolfing, where you actually get rewarded for skill and training, more powerfull weapons. Such as imageblocking, positioning, reflexes in "1 on 1 situations", yeah the list goes on.

If we continue to compare with football invispotion is basicly similar to removing one player from the game in order to give him a gun he can shoot a ball on the other teams goal every 10 min with autoaim. Yes, that would add more variation and more "skill". But it would on the other be on the cost of less reward for "skills" that actually takes skill to master and not something a 10 year old can do with 1 weeks practice.

i dont care. noone is talking about variation or skill.

do you agree that invis adds more INDIVIDUALITY to wolfing or not? you said on bnet(i have the logs) that removing invis will lead to MORE individuality for wolfes, and thats one of the reasons you wanted it removed. im sick of shoop using bad logic and propaganda to argue for his ideas on bnet. he can't hide when its forum debate

its extremely important that you understand that it does add more individuality, in order for other pro-invis arguments to apply. EVERYTHING you do in st is individual skill. putting more emphasis on holding your side under isolation takes away individuality and makes everyone depend on everyone else.

What I mean when I say I want to add more individuality is that I want to give bigger room for you to shine if you are skill, that is exacly the opposite of what invis does. Invis reduces makes wolfing luck based in the sense that if you are at the right spot when a sheep makes a misstake you get a kill. Its not hard to use invis, you dont see anyone who shines by being good in invis. People who used it more than 5-6 times pretty much does the same job when invissniping. I want a game where you can make a difference by being good. Therefore I think we should remove invis and make room for other parts of wolfing where you can develop so much further and when there is a big difference between good and bad players. Wolfing will be much funnier when people feel they are rewarded for doing something good instead other peoples misstakes.

Its always fun to kill, and thats what people associate with invis. But it is a lot funnier to kill someone beacause you do something right rather than someone else doing something right. This is what gives you as an individual room to shine. Not an item anyone can use.

cascading can get a kill if hes in the right place at the right time when a sheep fucks up, i can get a kill when sheeps dont fuck up. cascading can also get a kill with golems by a sheep fucking up, and i can get a kill with a golem if sheeps dont fuck up. the same goes for any type of kill. being able to get ''lucky kills'' or kills where someone fucks up doesn't mean that the item is luck-based nor that it doesn't require skill. i get 10 times more kills than cascading for a reason. invis is not luck-based, its skill-based. there is no luck involved with invis beyond the braindead "sheeps fucking up" scenarios shoop's talking about, where you might as well call anything luck(isolating as well).

individuality => you can make a bigger difference(negative or positive) by yourself, depending on your skill. how can you possibly think that it adds individuality by removing the invis? do you dissagree that the invis allows you to get kills with 4 noob allies, while being the worlds best zone-wolfer doesn't?




the rest is blabber about what you think is fun and your vision for st. totally irrelevant to the discussion. i want to discuss this point by point, because shoop always switches subject when hes cornered, and starts talking about his st vision and subjective chat about ''boring and static games''.

[quote="CHIEFHERO[SKS]"]cascading can get a kill if hes in the right place at the right time when a sheep fucks up,


Make it she and good post

The difference is ofcourse that invis is so unbeliveble easy to master. Once you figure out where true sight is a 5 year old can do the timing. The sheep runs at a constant speed that never change, you must be mentally challenged to not fail. What moment in invissniping allows you to excell? Please tell me?

Everyone who used this item 10 times are basically equally good, the factors that give you kill is if the sheep isnt carefull enough/have bad reactions/spikes. This is 99 % of the invis kill and has NOTHING to do with your own skill.

I agree golem in its current format is also too luckbased since you often get kills based on the sheep taking a risk that the wolf doesnt have a golem (another factor you cant controll) therefore I want to change golems so it becomes a weapon the sheep basically counts on the sheep having a golem and therefore golems from a wolf perspective becomes more of a possibility to temporarly cover an escape route over a farm through microing and ofcourse a killtool through really difficult jumps that the sheep cannot predict.

But the reason I want to remove invis is beacause how it EFFECTS the game. An item can be luckbased but its not ok that its on the cost of the entertainment value of the game. We should remove invis because it force us to play boring low paced game and we should rememebr that it is complete bullshit that invis is a "big skillfactor". It is by far the easiest roll you have as a wolf. If you have a team without complete freakshows, but the worst wolf at invissniping and the second worst in middle. Why you think I want Beeeh to invis when he is in my team but not Amir? Beacause I think Beeeh is a better invissniper than Amir? The difference is basically none, but Amir is 100 times better wolf in general.

Shoop wrote:

An item can be luckbased but its not ok that its on the cost of the entertainment value of the game.

This is the crux of the matter to me.

Yeah Lakes argument is the reason we should remove invis. But its also enough to conclude it gives you less room to make a difference when invis is around. It doesnt really make a difference between a legend and a turd when they use invis. If you want individuals the room to shine you shouldnt make an item everyone who used it 10 times is equally good with, especially not when its so powerfull. With your way of an item for 200 gold where u roll a dice and gets a 6 would add individuality since you can get kills dispite a crappy team. When I talk about individuality I mean rewarding individuals for something thats hard to do. Not rewarding them for something anyone can do. But maybe we just mean different things with individuality? I dont say anyone is right, I just wanna know what you mean and if you understand what I mean?

just so we're clear, this point about individuality was won by the invis supporters. if anyone thinks shoops last 2 post adds anything that hasnt directly been adressed, quote it.

over to next point!

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

I get 10 times more kills than cascading for a
reason. invis is not luck-based, its skill-based. there is no luck
involved with invis beyond the braindead "sheeps fucking up" scenarios
shoop's talking about, where you might as well call anything
luck(isolating as well).

individuality => you can make a
bigger difference(negative or positive) by yourself, depending on your
skill. how can you possibly think that it adds individuality by removing
the invis? do you dissagree that the invis allows you to get kills with
4 noob allies, while being the worlds best zone-wolfer doesn't?

Shoop wrote:

The difference is ofcourse that invis is so unbeliveble easy to master. Once you figure out where true sight is a 5 year old can do the timing. The sheep runs at a constant speed that never change, you must be mentally challenged to not fail. What moment in invissniping allows you to excell? Please tell me?

Everyone who used this item 10 times are basically equally good, [...] and has NOTHING to do with your own skill.

?answer?

Shoop wrote:

When I talk about individuality I mean rewarding individuals for
something thats hard to do. Not rewarding them for something anyone can
do. But maybe we just mean different things with individuality?

I also have a question for Amir: do you think we should strive for a map where teaming as wolf has about as much value as solo-wolfing? (I know that's not what you ask for, but it is important since you bring the comparison of zone-wolfing into discussion)

Lakes wot?

Shoop is saying, blatantly, that #invis kills will be the same regardless of whether it is you, me, or cascading doing the invising.

We all know that isn't true.

Effloresce wrote:

Lakes wot?

Shoop is saying, blatantly, that #invis kills will be the same regardless of whether it is you, me, or cascading doing the invising.

We all know that isn't true.

Actually he's saying that the one having trained it to a certain low point gets an invis kill by chance.
I never said I'd agree on that, but obviously Amir is eager to discuss about this.

For me the invis-case is simple: does invis add more fun than it takes away? depending on that decide wether to keep it or not. My subjective impression is that it doesn't

nothing there is relevant lakes. as i said earlier in this thread, we gotta take this point by point because shoop always switches points in mid-discussion and gets away with it.

invis adds individuality, yes or no? this is all that matters for now. later we can discuss whether we want more individuality or more team-dependence, and why. shoop said he wanted invis gone from the map because he wanted more individuality for the wolfes, and he clearly supported that idea through this thread.





and ofc its not true that anyone who has used invis 5-10 times is equally good. this is pretty much common sense, and unless shoop gives me a reason to assume otherwise(apart from just stating that he thinks so), there is nothing to reply to.

last point: i've also explained why people dislike the invis in the ''invis vs golem'' thread. its not because of the fundamental properties of the item. invis just hasn't been properly incorporated into the map. it doesn't fit well in atm.

mmmh...

Amir: Invis adds individuality
Shoop: Invis doesn't add individuality, because it doesn't require skill
Amir: It's common sense that invis requires skill

Can anyone agreeing with Amir (or himself) tell us theory about invis-sniping? What are the skills you have to bring, what is best positioning, are there better angles? Are there thumb rules where to be on the map as an invis wolf? etc.?
If noone can do this I sort of see a dead end in this discussion and it will probably just be dropped under the table in time.

Quote :

Shoop is saying, blatantly, that #invis kills will be the same regardless of whether it is you, me, or cascading doing the invising.

Lakes is this true or not?

That's the discussion right there. The answer is so obvious that we really don't need to take this any further.

Effloresce wrote:

Quote :

Shoop is saying, blatantly, that #invis kills will be the same regardless of whether it is you, me, or cascading doing the invising.

Lakes is this true or not?

It's true that shoop said that it doesn't matter wether you, katy or me do the invis-snipe as long as we are used to it :/
I think his point is that invis requires frequently use to get good it at, but "good" is not devided into cases such as very good, stunningly good or legend.

If you want to force me to give a statement onto wether invis adds individuality for one single wolf:

I think it does and I think people can be better or worse in invis, based on their individual qualities of positioning, timing and pretending and thus experience in the game.
Yet, I'm still against invis since I don't really see anyone having a theory on how to produce more&better kills nor a theory on how to get killed less/less easy and thus invis doesn't please me as much as f.e. golems do.

Quote :

Amir: Invis adds individuality BECAUSE blablabla
Shoop: Invis doesn't add individuality, because it doesn't require skill
Amir: It's common sense that invis requires skill

fixed that.

i don't care if shoop thinks everyone is equally good at invising or that invis is luck-based. as long as everyone elses sees through that bullshit(which im confident they do), its good enough for me. besides, i said that i would get more kills than cascading if we both used invis, shoop said i wouldn't. why are you asking me to explain my views as opposed to asking shoop, when you probably agree with me?

i think we'll wait for shoop to further document his theory about invis requiring 0 skill until i see atleast 1 more person who thinks the same as him. ill destroy him on the SKILL issue if people agree with him tho.

"farms don't require skill because it takes 0 skill to press b+f and then click on the ground". this is basically the argument shoop presents.

Quote :

Yet, I'm still against invis since I don't really see anyone having a theory on how to produce more&better kills nor a theory on how to get killed less/less easy and thus invis doesn't please me as much as f.e. golems do.

what makes it fun to get a golem kill? and what makes it fun to die to a golem? answere these two.