Map Maker's Call to the Sheep Tag Community

You may not know me, but I'm a map maker from Clan LeSs (Let's eat Some sheep) and owner of the most popular bot for Sheep Tag on TFT which hosts hundreds of games per week. I updated Chakra's Fixus map and was met by initial hostility for changes to the version that was made without input from the community outside of LeSs and I would like to address this problem. The Sheep Tag community has split into a few clans, on different realms, and on different versions of WC3, making it impractical and complicated to receive input from the community as a whole, especially since my version thrives on TFT and not RoC (although the map is RoC compatible). As a map developer I am open to any suggestions for my updates to the Sheep Tag map, and I encourage constructive criticism.

However, the community's divided nature is not just a problem for my map, it's a problem for every clan of Sheep Tag. It is difficult to organize tournaments, difficult to get regular players in one sheep tag map lobby, and difficult to get enough activity going to make an enjoyable clan. I sincerely propose that we unite under a single Sheep Tag clan that can service the entire community of WC3 that enjoys Sheep Tag. To avoid fighting over which clan will merge/eat which clan, I would like to all agree on a new clan name we can all vote on, and organize the clan under a democratic structure. All decisions would be made as a community, for the community, and I have the resources and skill necessary to implement votes through a bot that will check each voter's IP to ensure everyone is equally represented and the votes not abused. I also suggest that the Chieftain of this new clan remain neutral, in that he/she will not take over-ruling control over any decision.

There is also a split among those who favor Ultimate Sheep Tag and Sheep Tag ReVoLuTiOn. I wish to appease these two factions as well, and I have begun to integrate the two maps together under one map with a quick vote at the beginning to choose which terrain the player wishes to play on; switch, vampire, runtag modes, etc. also included. ReVoLuTiOn has long since been ignored by autohosters because it takes knowledge to set up games and takes 60 seconds for the game to start without player's input. It is also not very maintainable and hard to add features to, as Chakra has said, "ReVo, however, had no forethought. The map has been continuously developed since 2002 with no aim. The code is very, very haphazard. The majority of the map (of what Gosu did) is in GUI... It is still shitty and utterly impossible to really modify without some random bug appearing.". I have tried to condense the code into one easy to maintain system that is readable. If you notice features missing from ReVoLuTiOn we can talk about it and I can add them.

I am releasing my non-protected map here in the hopes of being transparent and encouraging others to take part in improving the map:
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/204157/

To open this map you will need Jass NewGen Pack which can be found here:
http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=90999

I have limited time to update this map but am devoted to at least making one major update every two weeks or more. Anyone who wishes to learn how to edit and help with the map can ask me, and I will gladly point you in the right direction.

I have a few ideas for changes to the map to encourage more gameplay, such as prizes unlocked for achievements. Whenever an achievement is obtained it would be recorded on the bot's database, preserving the prizes through each game. Prizes could be special effects, different models besides sheep, or whatever doesn't affect gameplay besides aesthetics. Tournaments could award prizes as well, etc. More statistical data than just games played would also be needed to encourage the accumulation of status and ranking players, which would also be recorded in the bot's database.


I hope we can come together as a community, without bickering and without hostility, and unite for the reason we are here: our shared enjoyment of Sheep Tag.

I praise ur ideas and im happy that someone actually cares about community and its future. However what concerns the part of making one active st clan:
No. 1 clan will just make the community uncompetetive and monotonous. I believe most people from europe will never join in together in one clan for many reasons , such as different opinions and views. 2. Im 99% sure behh members won't leave behh for another clan. Behh will stay as it is, no matter what u say.

All in all , ur ideas are great and u should continue to make map more fun and alluring.

Good luck

Hello Night,

I don't believe uniting clans would make sheep tag noncompetitive and monotonous. Sheep Tag on TFT at least, is noncompetitive and monotonous simply because everyone is indifferent about improving. They play for easy fun, and ignore tournaments because there's no incentive to compete with others when you can just relax in a pub game. You would also have to arrange a meeting time for the tournaments. I could fix these issues by providing incentives to compete (unique prizes) and making the pub bot automatically start a ranked match when clan members join the pub allowing a tournament match to be held whenever people are available.

As for merging clans, it's fine if Behh doesn't want to merge, as long as 2 clans merge that's a goal accomplished because there's less division in the community. All that I want to do is increase activity and interest in sheep tag by increasing communication between groups; that can be done through other means besides merging, such as a centralized bot information system in each clan that announces community-wide messages, takes vote surveys, announces public games, and can call a random bot from any clan to host private games. I'd prefer if we could try merging into larger clans first however as that is quite a bit of work. Communication between the communities is important, Clan LeSs has been on TFT hosting many games for months and most ST clans still don't know about its or my map's existence.

I am also a bit ignorant of what ST clans there are; what are their names? Which one of them is open to discussing the idea of merging clans / the ST community?

Of course any clan that merges automatically gains a devoted map maker and bot coder, who can improve the state of affairs.

European st clans:
1. Behh ( has the most oldschool players, i also believe the most players in european st community which are active/semi-active, behh is also the main channel for whole european st community).
2. CsB( has mass new people, i believe its kind of active, even tho most ppl in csb rather play other custom games than sheep tag.)
3. Grr ( i have practically no information about grr , but it has some active members who would play sheep tag 100%)
4. Whis( an inactive clan, has 2 players, who play dota mostly, but i believe they would start to play st again if it becomes active)



Behh is also a semi dota clan, most ppl can play dota and sheep tag.

So feel free to ask anything if u like , i'l be glad to help.

lpvb wrote:

I hope we can come together as a community, without bickering and without hostility, and unite for the reason we are here: our shared enjoyment of Sheep Tag.

I think you meant to put that in quotes and say put -XXXandBEER at the end of it. You quote stealer.


Anyways we have a map and a map maker. I have never heard of clan less and I have never played a sheep tag game with you. I also have no clue who you are. If you could just give us a quick history lesson on how you got into sheep tag it would be quite nice. This way we know were not trusting some fool with the map.

Also if your aname (i know aname makes a bunch of random clans) then get back to work on glitch nova! GAWD its going to be epiCS!

XXXandBEER wrote:

Anyways we have a map and a map maker. I have never heard of clan less and I have never played a sheep tag game with you. I also have no clue who you are. If you could just give us a quick history lesson on how you got into sheep tag it would be quite nice. This way we know were not trusting some fool with the map.

Also if your aname (i know aname makes a bunch of random clans) then get back to work on glitch nova! GAWD its going to be epiCS!

I have no idea who aname is except that it says he's played on my bot 27 times. I've been playing sheep tag on and off since the early days of RoC, and I've been modifying the map ever since zeroshadow1 stopped updating the map. I added the zoom and angle commands, removed his cheats, and that version was played for a while a year ago. I don't remember everyone's names, but I remember Chakra, statis_totem_, danno, mazeking, 008, JomarTaaca, etc. used to play a lot then on TFT. Back then, I made ill-advised radical changes to the map for JomarTaaca's bot but it was too buggy and crashed often. I gave up and stopped playing for a few months until January of this year when nuno's bot was hosting Chakra's fixus on TFT. Nuno's bot went down permanently and I volunteered to purchase a bot for hosting Sheep Tag because 2 weeks went by without any other bot taking over. I joined Clan LeSs, lead by Tameyoshi, and he told me that there were bugs in fixus that no one bothered to fix. I then re-did all of Chakra's map triggers and added these new features to the map while maintaining stability. The new version and the new bot became the main setup on TFT and has had 8153 games since February 3, 2012; which is about 92 games per day. Here's the game log.

Today there's 55 members in Clan LeSs and has most of the regular players on TFT. I've tried to expand to RoC but it seems there is no popular sheep tag bot on that version.

First off, I want to say great that you are interested in taking over the development scene. It has been far to long since anyone serious has taken the reigns. However, I do want to point at a few criticisms:
1) Make sure you check your maps off, if you claim RoC-compatibility, on a RoC-only installation (IE, no evidence of TFT). This quickly reveals missing material (such as icons, doodads, or even abilities [check claws of +50, mine didn't work on RoC]).
2) I'd suggest consolidating the terrain into being both priv and pub friendly. Classic ReVo terrain was more like this (before ReVo, I mean), but obviously new elements have been learned. IE, boxes. Lots and lots of one-way-in areas. They don't need to be able to jump out (or at least not as annoyingly as on UST), but they are what pubs want.
3) The greatest failure of the maps was that they did split. DotA, as well as any game's, success was build on one-map-fits all. If you really want to merge the pub and priv community, you must provide one map.
4) If you want to make the code open source, I'd suggest getting a code.google svn up with the official map and other stuff and strictly dialoging the changes you do (which I've heard you already do).


And yeah. ._. I actually do remember you name from a year or so back. Sorry about sicking those people on you, lol. I just really dislike your doodads. :/ And you said my code was ugly. : ( (which I guess is entirely subjective. ^^)

Keep up de work. Know that WC3 will forever be declining in activity, so don't expect it to always be possible to get it to be as active as it was a year ago....


OH, clans. There is no real reason for clans to unify--the autohosting bots just must be unified in what channel they host from. As long as the bots are in one place, the channel should be plenty active.

1. I already know about TFT features missing in RoC. I've had to import doodad model files already. I haven't tested it extensively though.
   
2. There is no way to consolidate revo terrain with ulti's terrain. The people I've talked to who like Revo, like it because they are familiar with the terrain. If I change the terrain at all they will not like it.
   
3. I cannot make one terrain that will fit all. The only way to merge the two maps is to keep them as separate options, allowing those who want to play revo to play pub games.
   
4. I'm not even sure that anyone wants to help with the map yet, and if they would be willing to move off the IDE of newgen pack and use jasshelper separately.

If you want me to respond meaningfully you have to say why my doodads suck, and which ones they are or else I'll just respond in kind. WC3 will always be active to me as long as SC2 custom games suck and there's no WC4.

If the clans won't unify I will have to go with the bot plan.

ReVo players have been calling for a new map for seven or more years. They may claim to not want new terrain, but most say they need it. Reality is, if you update the map in other ways and change the terrain (maybe little by little), people will still play it.

I don't like your doodads because they make the terrain feel even more fake than without. Off the top of my head (I only played that one game), the flowers in the middle and the barrels (though those aren't so bad once you get past the initial shock). IDK, they just look really fake and remind me of the cruddy ST maps like RotS.

Things wrong with the map
Even if you choose revo or ulti they both appear on the minimap. Easy fix imo.
I dislike having to learn new claws and the base damage for wolves. I noticed wolves with claws = still 3 hit wtf?
Next why is there stun farms and stack farms?
Next why is upgrades 3 gold when built from sheep, but 6 when upgraded from farm? Also why can you upgrade farms in general?
Sentry farms have 250 hp?
Theres no +c60 and theres a anti sabre thingy. Theres also a retarded dagger and a mongoloid goblin night scope.
Stone tokens and cloak of shadows made me lawl same with stalkers and white wolves...

What in the world is wrong with this map. I chose revo and I still get shitty fixus items and farms???

Here is Sheep Tag Battle its ReVo except theres no commands to type
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/137901/

Also I would like to see you play come on RoC and stop by Clan StH occasionally and play with us

I should have pointed out that any of the original 7.0.0 strains were designed with HCL-presets. That is, by setting HCL to 1 it's classic battle, 2 is fairs, etc. I can't find the list as chatcraft.net is down. :/

Beer, are you talking about when you set to ReVo? If so, I don't care.
However, all of the object data is perfectly valid for UST. If you don't agree, you simply don't play enough or legitimately. Obviously if you can upgrade normal farms to upgraded farms, it should cost more than just building basic farms. There are +50s. PubST blows without stack farms.

Crying about having to adjust is pitiful. Why change anything if you are going to use that as an argument?

Chakra wrote:

I should have pointed out that any of the original 7.0.0 strains were designed with HCL-presets. That is, by setting HCL to 1 it's classic battle, 2 is fairs, etc. I can't find the list as chatcraft.net is down. :/

Beer, are you talking about when you set to ReVo? If so, I don't care.
However, all of the object data is perfectly valid for UST. If you don't agree, you simply don't play enough or legitimately. Obviously if you can upgrade normal farms to upgraded farms, it should cost more than just building basic farms. There are +50s. PubST blows without stack farms.

Crying about having to adjust is pitiful. Why change anything if you are going to use that as an argument?

I was talking about when you select revo. Ofc fixus is fine and pub friendly, but when you select revo it should change.

XXXandBEER wrote:

Things wrong with the map
Even if you choose revo or ulti they both appear on the minimap. Easy fix imo.
I dislike having to learn new claws and the base damage for wolves. I noticed wolves with claws = still 3 hit wtf?
Next why is there stun farms and stack farms?
Next why is upgrades 3 gold when built from sheep, but 6 when upgraded from farm? Also why can you upgrade farms in general?
Sentry farms have 250 hp?
Theres no +c60 and theres a anti sabre thingy. Theres also a retarded dagger and a mongoloid goblin night scope.
Stone tokens and cloak of shadows made me lawl same with stalkers and white wolves...

What in the world is wrong with this map. I chose revo and I still get shitty fixus items and farms???

Here is Sheep Tag Battle its ReVo except theres no commands to type
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/137901/

Also I would like to see you play come on RoC and stop by Clan StH occasionally and play with us

• I already know about revo and ulti appearing on the minimap. It's not an easy fix, I would have to take pictures of each seperate terrain and have the camera bounds zoom in and minimap change.
  
• Wolves with what claws? Are the hps of the farms too high or the claw atks too low?
  
• I can take a vote on upgradeable farms later. I have no system to do it right now though.
  
• I'll remove the dagger and add +60 soon.
  
• What's wrong with stone tokens and ww? No one is forcing you to buy cloak of shadows. If it's imba we can discuss removal since it would make it unfair but it's not.

Quote :

I should have pointed out that any of the original 7.0.0 strains were designed with HCL-presets.

Did not realize that. I still won't work with those triggers though.

lpvb wrote:

XXXandBEER wrote:

Things wrong with the map
Even if you choose revo or ulti they both appear on the minimap. Easy fix imo.
I dislike having to learn new claws and the base damage for wolves. I noticed wolves with claws = still 3 hit wtf?
Next why is there stun farms and stack farms?
Next why is upgrades 3 gold when built from sheep, but 6 when upgraded from farm? Also why can you upgrade farms in general?
Sentry farms have 250 hp?
Theres no +c60 and theres a anti sabre thingy. Theres also a retarded dagger and a mongoloid goblin night scope.
Stone tokens and cloak of shadows made me lawl same with stalkers and white wolves...

What in the world is wrong with this map. I chose revo and I still get shitty fixus items and farms???

Here is Sheep Tag Battle its ReVo except theres no commands to type
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/137901/

Also I would like to see you play come on RoC and stop by Clan StH occasionally and play with us

• I already know about revo and ulti appearing on the minimap. It's not an easy fix, I would have to take pictures of each seperate terrain and have the camera bounds zoom in and minimap change.
  
• Wolves with what claws? Are the hps of the farms too high or the claw atks too low?
  
• I can take a vote on upgradeable farms later. I have no system to do it right now though.
  
• I'll remove the dagger and add +60 soon.
  
• What's wrong with stone tokens and ww? No one is forcing you to buy cloak of shadows. If it's imba we can discuss removal since it would make it unfair but it's not.

Quote :

I should have pointed out that any of the original 7.0.0 strains were designed with HCL-presets.

Did not realize that. I still won't work with those triggers though.

I was simply saying make the revolution version revolution and the fixus version fixus...............

Yo lpvb, chakra is just trying to put u down. Ever since he released his map publicly he became insecure and judges what others are doing with his shitty map. I belibeve u will be a better mapmaker than chakra prove me right. DonT listen to what that horse brain has to say. Afterall he has failed in two of his projects: st.net and the map itself!!!

Hostbot says that "the currently loaded map config file is invalid" when I try to open ur map Ultimate_Sheeptag_Revolution_2029.

Rename it to something shorter.